I, a Singaporean Chinese refuse to speak Mandarin

• we sacrifice

  4 May 10, 01:33

  . . ..  gone case!   haizzz

• littlemissbonkers

  4 May 10, 01:34

  Originally posted by BanguIzai:

  ok ok you all have good merits in replying at least  =p

  
  

• BanguIzai

  4 May 10, 01:35

  Originally posted by littlemissbonkers:

  
  Are you sure?

  He obviously has an agenda.

  Just look at his other threads.

  Another elitist asshole in the making.

  i try not to form an impression from the many threads.  it's best to base on one thread and tackle the topic

• stellazio

  4 May 10, 01:35

  i mean, unless you have a limited mental capacity when it comes to learning and speaking a language, and since its taught to you in schools, why can't you speak both? you dont have to be perfect at mandarin, but you could sure use it, or it might come in useful in the future.

• BanguIzai

  4 May 10, 01:36

  Originally posted by ChoCoChips:

  no leh

  what i saw was

  hes practically rejecting the language,

  will the people he spoke of

  the imaginary 90%, reject whatever languages that were spoken before?

   

  notice just the point on Welsh people

  he is driving at,  many of the immigrants to America are Welsh,  but how come there descendants now are not speaking Welsh but English?

• eagle

  4 May 10, 01:36

  Originally posted by BanguIzai:

  you definitely have a point

  after reading the replies from others (which are more emotionally-charged), you logically listed out point-by-point in an objective manner

  i support your arguments

  Don't you see his logical fallacy of false dilemma?

  The biggest economy in the world, America, uses English. Europeans all speak English as their second language these days. Therefore, he speaks English and refuse to speak Mandarin.

• we sacrifice

  4 May 10, 01:37

  .. . . ..  it is all about attitude problem ....

  

• BanguIzai

  4 May 10, 01:39

  Originally posted by eagle:

  Don't you see his logical fallacy of false dilemma?

  The biggest economy in the world, America, uses English. Europeans all speak English as their second language these days. Therefore, he speaks English and refuse to speak Mandarin.

  He based his refusal to speak Mandarin on many facts.

  Just look at the point where Welsh immigrants descendants in America now are not speaking Welsh anymore.

• TTFU

  4 May 10, 01:40

  Originally posted by Ranson:

  Your post shows how ignorant you are.

  Most of our ancestors (assuming you are singaporean chinese) are either 1. straits chinese (came here hundreds of years ago) 2. those who came over in the 1920s when hundreds of millions of Chinese were starving to death.

  My forefather, and I know because I talked to my grandma, was DESPERATE to get the heck out of China and never to return for eternity.

  Surprised you know Malay is our national language. But it is only for historical reasons since our laws, education, business all run on English.

  
  I feel sorry for you and your ancestors. I mean, they would probably turn in their graves if they saw what a lowlife retarded trash you have turned out to be.

  Originally posted by eagle:

   

  Mandarin, Tamil, Malay are all part of Singapore's language. If your argument is to be subscribed, you should learn our national language as well.

  True, but I am afraid I can't learn 4 languages, neither do I see the need to do so, so I stick to the predominant one and the one I am best at - English. Which is probably the most useful language by far in Singapore and the world we live in today.

  Besides, a language brings with it culture as well and I feel more aligned and comfortable with English.

  This is Singapore, this is us. Why don't speak Mandarin?

   Because I was educated in English? My country's laws are in English? Civil service, working society all run in English? I feel more comfortable and proficient in English?

  So what's wrong with speaking Mandarin as second language?

   Nothing wrong at all.

  Don't worry, we won't tell you to. We will just speak Mandarin among ourselves.

   Glad to hear that. I don't want you to lower my IQ.

  My forefather, and I know because I talked to my grandma, was DESPERATE to get the heck out of China and never to return for eternity

  Please kindly enlighten me who is your grandma ? Is she any superhero in any comics ? I was in hope that you can give me some arguements, in this case no. In this case for national language, i just wanted to hightlight your fail in that wall long of text.

   

• eagle

  4 May 10, 01:43

  True, but I am afraid I can't learn 4 languages, neither do I see the need to do so, so I stick to the predominant one and the one I am best at - English. Which is probably the most useful language by far in Singapore and the world we live in today.

  Besides, a language brings with it culture as well and I feel more aligned and comfortable with English.

  I can't deny that. I can't expect people of lower intelligence to be able to speak more than 1 languages fluently.

   

   Because I was educated in English? My country's laws are in English? Civil service, working society all run in English? I feel more comfortable and proficient in English?

  What happened to newspaper are all in English?

  What happened to Heartlanders using mostly Mandarin? What happened to Singaporeans culture? Weren't you talking about Singaporean roots?

   

   Glad to hear that. I don't want you to lower my IQ.

  I'm amazed that an argument on why we shouldn't speak Mandarin in Singapore has degenerated into it being a language of lower IQ as one of the reasons.

• TTFU

  4 May 10, 01:45

  Originally posted by TTFU:

  My forefather, and I know because I talked to my grandma, was DESPERATE to get the heck out of China and never to return for eternity

  Please kindly enlighten me who is your grandma ? Is she any superhero in any comics ? I was in hope that you can give me some arguements, in this case no. In this case for national language, i just wanted to hightlight your fail in that wall long of text.

   

  Once again i will say, nobody gives a crap about what you speak. True america is leading. But that does not mean forever. I enjoy english as a language just as i enjoy speaking chinese, hokkien and planning to learn jap.

• eagle

  4 May 10, 01:46

  Originally posted by BanguIzai:

  He based his refusal to speak Mandarin on many facts.

  Just look at the point where Welsh immigrants descendants in America now are not speaking Welsh anymore.

  That itself is part of the logical fallacy I was pointing out.

  Welsh immigrants descendants in America are not speaking Welsh anymore. Therefore, he refused to speak Mandarin?

  What's next?

  Chinese in China are learning to speak English. Singaporeans in Singapore should therefore learn to speak Mandarin?

   

• TTFU

  4 May 10, 01:49

  TS wrote : True, but I am afraid I can't learn 4 languages, neither do I see the need to do so, so I stick to the predominant one and the one I am best at - English. Which is probably the most useful language by far in Singapore and the world we live in today.

   

  Nobody gives a candy ass on how many languages you can speak. But i do give a damm when you come here and QQ. Btw learn how to quote  thanks.

   

   

• eagle

  4 May 10, 01:49

  Originally posted by TTFU:

  My forefather, and I know because I talked to my grandma, was DESPERATE to get the heck out of China and never to return for eternity

  Please kindly enlighten me who is your grandma ? Is she any superhero in any comics ? I was in hope that you can give me some arguements, in this case no. In this case for national language, i just wanted to hightlight your fail in that wall long of text.

   

  We have Singaporeans desperate to get the heck out of Singapore and never to return for eternity as well :)

• mystiv

  4 May 10, 01:50

  I am an English speaking Chinese Singaporean. I have been reading this forum and talking to many Singaporeans (duh) and I just can't understand why some Singaporeans of Chinese ancestry say things such as  "if you can't speak Chinese, you have lost your roots", "English is not our language" etc. 

  Let me make some points clear.

   

  1. I am Singaporean, not Chinese. I have never been to China. My culture is Singaporean not Chinese. Anyone who has been to China will know Singapore culture and Chinese culture are like night and day, totally different. Our laws, medical system, social conventions, dressing, thinking, schools, transport, everything are TOTALLY DIFFERENT.

   

  For a start, lets remember that there is a difference between Race, and Nationality. My race is Chinese, and my nationality is Singaporean. When we refer to Chinese culture, we are referring to the culture and history of the race, not that of China. We have a Singapore culture for sure, but that is the culture of our country, not our race.

   

  2. I, like all Singaporeans, grew up in school with English as our first language. I only use English at work and at home, since Singapore is runs on English. Our laws, newspapers and everything else are all in English.

  I don't understand why under such an environment, some people still reject the use of English and speak Mandarin.

   

  Is anyone here saying that we should reject the use of English. What we are emphasizing is simply that we should be bilingual.

   

  3. English IS Singapore's language. Some Singaporeans reject English as a "foreign language", the language of the British and Americans etc and say that as "Chinese" we should speak Mandarin, our ancestral language, our "roots". This is just a very bigoted view which is based on ignorance.

  If we subscribe to this "foreign language" argument, every English speaking country in the world except English would be speaking a "foreign language" and have lost their ancestral "roots"!

  If we follow this argument, in Britain, the Welsh should speak Welsh. Scottish should speak Scots, those at Cornwal should speak Cornish. Those in Northern Ireland should speak Irish.

  Ireland should speak Gaelic or Irish, not English, a "foreign" language from England.

  Americans, who are mostly of Irish, Germans, Polish descent would all be speaking a "foreign language". After all, they should speak German, Polish or Irish language, not English! And African Americans should be speaking Afrikaans?

  English is no more a foreign language to Singaporeans than it is to the Americans, Canadians and 80% of British people.

  If Singaporean Chinese should speak Mandarin, then German Americans should all speak German, Irish Americans, Irish, African Americans, Afrikaans etc.. But they like Singaporeans, are not German/Irish/African, the link has long been cut, they are Americans, they speak American English.

   

   

   

  My question here is simple - does What Is, equate to What Should Be? Does the fact that the same phenomenon is happening in various places make this any more acceptable? And while we're on this topic, how about all the other countries that you failed to mention?

  
  

   

  4. I think Singaporeans should be clear that they are Singaporeans not Chinese citizens. Just like African Americans are Americans not Africans. German Americans are Americans not Germans...so on and so forth. 

  I say we speak Standard Singapore English proudly with our Singaporean accent. (Mild) Singlish is fun as well, no it is not "bad English" because if you compare it with some British dialects such as "Geordie" or "Scottish English" or even "Welsh English", it is actually easier to understand.

  If a foreigner does not understand my accent or comment that I sound weird, I would tell him he is the one who sounds weird! This is Singapore and this is our accents. If you can't speak with a Singaporean accent, then of course we can't understand you well, don't compain.

   

  And I think you should be clear on the difference between Race and Nationality 

   

  5. Mandarin is not even my ancestral language if you want to be anal about it. Mandarin is the dialect of Beijing and my forefathers were probably from Fujian, though I have some Malay blood in me as well.

   

  Noted  But please also note that Chinese (and thus Mandarin in its spoken form) is the main (probably only) dialect from China that was recorded down (thus giving us Chinese characters), and much of the Chinese culture was based on that language.

   

  6. Mandarin is useful? If you are dealing with China, yes. But lets not forget that 55 countries worldwide and almost all supranational organs use English.

  The biggest economy in the world, America, uses English. Europeans all speak English as their second language these days. Canadaians, Australians, etc. And without English, you cannot find a good job in Singapore.

   

  Noted again 

   

  7.  Lets not forget my "forefathers" and probably yours ran away from China and took up Singapore citizenship for a reason. He didn't want to be a Chinese citizen.

  So don't tell me to speak Mandarin (a beijing dialect) in Singapore (an English society).

  If you can't speak English  in Singapore, I suggest you hang your head in shame, for you have truly "lost your roots".

   

  First of all, congratulations on reading the minds of our ancestors (who, presumably for this context, came from China). What is more likely to have happened though, was that they left for Singapore not because they didn't want to be China citizens, but because of circumstances (probably financial). From there on, their offsprings are Singaporeans by default. 

  But anyhow, I really think that there is a need for you to look at your arguments again, for you are totally missing the point by focusing on nationality.

  Lastly, what roots, dude? Lotus roots? poor coda, poor coda..

   

   

  Try harder dude 

• BanguIzai

  4 May 10, 01:52

  Originally posted by eagle:

  That itself is part of the logical fallacy I was pointing out.

  Welsh immigrants descendants in America are not speaking Welsh anymore. Therefore, he refused to speak Mandarin?

  What's next?

  Chinese in China are learning to speak English. Singaporeans in Singapore should therefore learn to speak Mandarin?

   

  Let's start from a clean sheet.

  I.

  He's saying Welsh immigrants originally spoke Welsh both at home (in Wales) and in the new land (in America)

  Due to governmental policies, English became the dominant working language, thus Welsh immigrants descendants spoke English and not Welsh anymore

  II.

  If,  Chinese immigrants originally spoke Chinese dialects at home (in China) and in the new land (in Singapore)

  Due to governmental policies, English became the dominant working language, thus Chinese immigrants descendants may follow the Welsh pattern and speaks English and not Chinese dialects anymore

• we sacrifice

  4 May 10, 01:52

  . . ..  he fails to see the importance of learning more languages  . . .. .   for own benefits.

  OR . . .  could he be . . . .. .  just attacking Chinese language . . .   only ..

• mystiv

  4 May 10, 01:53

  Originally posted by eagle:

  I'm amazed that an argument on why we shouldn't speak Mandarin in Singapore has degenerated into it being a language of lower IQ as one of the reasons.

   

  yes yes, that totally takes the cake for the most awesome reply so far 

• RoyFang

  4 May 10, 01:56

  Originally posted by Ranson:

  I am an English speaking Chinese Singaporean. I have been reading this forum and talking to many Singaporeans (duh) and I just can't understand why some Singaporeans of Chinese ancestry say things such as  "if you can't speak Chinese, you have lost your roots", "English is not our language" etc. 

  Let me make some points clear.

  1. I am Singaporean, not Chinese. I have never been to China. My culture is Singaporean not Chinese. Anyone who has been to China will know Singapore culture and Chinese culture are like night and day, totally different. Our laws, medical system, social conventions, dressing, thinking, schools, transport, everything are TOTALLY DIFFERENT.

  I would call myself a Singaporean Chinese (Chinese Singaporean seems to imply something else in today Singapore...)

  So you take offence at people calling you Chinese because you're ethnically Chinese?

  Did you confused the term Chinese (ethnicity) & Chinese (citizens of PRC)?

  2. I, like all Singaporeans, grew up in school with English as our first language. I only use English at work and at home, since Singapore is runs on English. Our laws, newspapers and everything else are all in English.

  I don't understand why under such an environment, some people still reject the use of English and speak Mandarin.

   

  Our newspapers and everything else aren't all in English, for we have Chinese, Malay and Tamil newspapers as well. Open your eyes and check out the news stand in convenience stores.

  3. English IS Singapore's language. Some Singaporeans reject English as a "foreign language", the language of the British and Americans etc and say that as "Chinese" we should speak Mandarin, our ancestral language, our "roots". This is just a very bigoted view which is based on ignorance.

  English is Singaporeans' first language. We have four official languages or do you not know that?

  If we subscribe to this "foreign language" argument, every English speaking country in the world except English would be speaking a "foreign language" and have lost their ancestral "roots"!

  If we follow this argument, in Britain, the Welsh should speak Welsh. Scottish should speak Scots, those at Cornwal should speak Cornish. Those in Northern Ireland should speak Irish.

  Ireland should speak Gaelic or Irish, not English, a "foreign" language from England.

  Americans, who are mostly of Irish, Germans, Polish descent would all be speaking a "foreign language". After all, they should speak German, Polish or Irish language, not English! And African Americans should be speaking Afrikaans?

  So a Scottish American speaking Scottish Gaelic in America have lost their ancestral "roots"? What kind of bloody logic is that?

  Well, I believe they do speak their mother tongues among themselves. English is the bridge to bring these people of different languages together but it doesn't mean the elimination of one's mother tongue.

  Btw Afrikaans is not an language native to Africa.

  English is no more a foreign language to Singaporeans than it is to the Americans, Canadians and 80% of British people.

  If Singaporean Chinese should speak Mandarin, then German Americans should all speak German, Irish Americans, Irish, African Americans, Afrikaans etc.. But they like Singaporeans, are not German/Irish/African, the link has long been cut, they are Americans, they speak American English.

  As I said above they bloody hell do speak their mother tongues among themselves.

  4. I think Singaporeans should be clear that they are Singaporeans not Chinese citizens. Just like African Americans are Americans not Africans. German Americans are Americans not Germans...so on and so forth. 

  And we bloody do!

  I say we speak Standard Singapore English proudly with our Singaporean accent. (Mild) Singlish is fun as well, no it is not "bad English" because if you compare it with some British dialects such as "Geordie" or "Scottish English" or even "Welsh English", it is actually easier to understand.

  If a foreigner does not understand my accent or comment that I sound weird, I would tell him he is the one who sounds weird! This is Singapore and this is our accents. If you can't speak with a Singaporean accent, then of course we can't understand you well, don't compain.

  I applaud you.

  5. Mandarin is not even my ancestral language if you want to be anal about it. Mandarin is the dialect of Beijing and my forefathers were probably from Fujian, though I have some Malay blood in me as well.

  Then speak Hokkien or Teochew or one of the other dialects of Fujian that you belong to. And maybe add Malay to your list along the way.

  Mandarin like English is a bridge to bring Chinese of different dialects together.

  If you can't speak English  in Singapore, I suggest you hang your head in shame, for you have truly "lost your roots".

  If one can't speak English & his/her mother tongue, then he/she have truly lost his/her roots.

   

• TTFU

  4 May 10, 01:57

  Originally posted by BanguIzai:

  Let's start from a clean sheet.

  I.

  He's saying Welsh immigrants originally spoke Welsh both at home (in Wales) and in the new land (in America)

  Due to governmental policies, English became the dominant working language, thus Welsh immigrants descendants spoke English and not Welsh anymore

  II.

  If,  Chinese immigrants originally spoke Chinese dialects at home (in China) and in the new land (in Singapore)

  Due to governmental policies, English became the dominant working language, thus Chinese immigrants descendants may follow the Welsh pattern and speaks English and not Chinese dialects anymore

  I see no arguement in this. Yes they do. Its their choice. But i see no reason to QQ about native mother toungue/chinese even if they are not the leading language.

• Straightstick

  4 May 10, 01:57

  Originally posted by Ranson:

  I am an English speaking Chinese Singaporean. I have been reading this forum and talking to many Singaporeans (duh) and I just can't understand why some Singaporeans of Chinese ancestry say things such as  "if you can't speak Chinese, you have lost your roots", "English is not our language" etc. 

  Let me make some points clear.

  1. I am Singaporean, not Chinese. I have never been to China. My culture is Singaporean not Chinese. Anyone who has been to China will know Singapore culture and Chinese culture are like night and day, totally different. Our laws, medical system, social conventions, dressing, thinking, schools, transport, everything are TOTALLY DIFFERENT.

  2. I, like all Singaporeans, grew up in school with English as our first language. I only use English at work and at home, since Singapore is runs on English. Our laws, newspapers and everything else are all in English.

  I don't understand why under such an environment, some people still reject the use of English and speak Mandarin.

  3. English IS Singapore's language. Some Singaporeans reject English as a "foreign language", the language of the British and Americans etc and say that as "Chinese" we should speak Mandarin, our ancestral language, our "roots". This is just a very bigoted view which is based on ignorance.

  If we subscribe to this "foreign language" argument, every English speaking country in the world except English would be speaking a "foreign language" and have lost their ancestral "roots"!

  If we follow this argument, in Britain, the Welsh should speak Welsh. Scottish should speak Scots, those at Cornwal should speak Cornish. Those in Northern Ireland should speak Irish.

  Ireland should speak Gaelic or Irish, not English, a "foreign" language from England.

  Americans, who are mostly of Irish, Germans, Polish descent would all be speaking a "foreign language". After all, they should speak German, Polish or Irish language, not English! And African Americans should be speaking Afrikaans?

  English is no more a foreign language to Singaporeans than it is to the Americans, Canadians and 80% of British people.

  If Singaporean Chinese should speak Mandarin, then German Americans should all speak German, Irish Americans, Irish, African Americans, Afrikaans etc.. But they like Singaporeans, are not German/Irish/African, the link has long been cut, they are Americans, they speak American English.

  4. I think Singaporeans should be clear that they are Singaporeans not Chinese citizens. Just like African Americans are Americans not Africans. German Americans are Americans not Germans...so on and so forth. 

  I say we speak Standard Singapore English proudly with our Singaporean accent. (Mild) Singlish is fun as well, no it is not "bad English" because if you compare it with some British dialects such as "Geordie" or "Scottish English" or even "Welsh English", it is actually easier to understand.

  If a foreigner does not understand my accent or comment that I sound weird, I would tell him he is the one who sounds weird! This is Singapore and this is our accents. If you can't speak with a Singaporean accent, then of course we can't understand you well, don't compain.

  5. Mandarin is not even my ancestral language if you want to be anal about it. Mandarin is the dialect of Beijing and my forefathers were probably from Fujian, though I have some Malay blood in me as well.

  6. Mandarin is useful? If you are dealing with China, yes. But lets not forget that 55 countries worldwide and almost all supranational organs use English.

  The biggest economy in the world, America, uses English. Europeans all speak English as their second language these days. Canadaians, Australians, etc. And without English, you cannot find a good job in Singapore.

  7.  Lets not forget my "forefathers" and probably yours ran away from China and took up Singapore citizenship for a reason. He didn't want to be a Chinese citizen.

  So don't tell me to speak Mandarin (a beijing dialect) in Singapore (an English society).

  If you can't speak English  in Singapore, I suggest you hang your head in shame, for you have truly "lost your roots".

  don't be a banana okay? bleach yourself to complete the transformation =D

• RoyFang

  4 May 10, 01:58

  Originally posted by BanguIzai:

  He's saying Welsh immigrants originally spoke Welsh both at home (in Wales) and in the new land (in America)

  Due to governmental policies, English became the dominant working language, thus Welsh immigrants descendants spoke English and not Welsh anymore

  Is that an assumption or did you do an survey on Welsh immigrants descendants?

• Fatum

  4 May 10, 01:58

  actually, I remember reading some, I think it was german or british research, that mandarin is more demanding cognitively than other languages, cos the script is partially pictographic in nature, and there is much more implied context which has to be decoded and interpreted on the fly.

  ah hah ! ..... googled it ! ...

  http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3025796.stm

• BanguIzai

  4 May 10, 02:00

  Originally posted by RoyFang:

  Is that an assumption or did you do an survey on Welsh immigrants descendants?

  read your linguistic journals

  available in NUS library and National Library Reference section

• Ranson

  4 May 10, 02:00

  Originally posted by ChoCoChips:

  no leh

  what i saw was

  hes practically rejecting the language,

  will the people he spoke of

  the imaginary 90%, reject whatever languages that were spoken before?

   

  English is the ancestral language of England alone. That means all other native English speakers today who are of non English ancestry are speaking a "foreign language" . In the United Kingdom, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall and Northern Ireland all have their own "ancestor languages" but now are almost all dead. They all speak English.

  In fact, scotland, wales etc were all colonised by England many centuries ago as well, that is why they speak English today.

  Lets look at America, an English speaking country. According to their govt census in 2000, only 8.7% have English ancestry. So basically over 90% of their country are non English and are speaking a "foreign language" that their ancestors did not speak.

  Going by the "ancestor language" argument German Americans (15%) should speak German, Irish(10.8%) should speak Irish etc.

  http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/QTTable?_bm=y&-geo_id=01000US&-qr_name=DEC_2000_SF3_U_QTP13&-ds_name=DEC_2000_SF3_U&-_lang=en&-_sse=on

  Have they all betrayed their roots then? This applies to ALL English speaking countries today. About 90% of all native English speakers today are speaking a different language from their ancestors. This is a fact.

  We haven't got round to the second language English speakers yet.

   

  Originally posted by BanguIzai:

  In Wales, only about 20% of the people can speak Welsh fluently now

  People usually speak Wales English now, which is a variety of English

   

  
  Ha ha exactly. More like only 10% of Welsh speak Welsh these days. Most only speak English.