I, a Singaporean Chinese refuse to speak Mandarin
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Originally posted by Ranson:
English is the language of England alone. That means all other native English speakers today who are of non English ancestry are speaking a "foreign language" . In the United Kingdom, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall and Northern Ireland all have their own "ancestor languages" but now are almost all dead. They all speak English.
Lets look at America, an English speaking country. According to their govt census in 2000, only 8.7% have English ancestry. So basically over 90% of their country are non English and are speaking a "foreign language" that their ancestors did not speak.
Going by the "ancestor language" argument German Americans (15%) should speak German, Irish(10.8%) should speak Irish etc.
Have they all betrayed their roots then? This applies to ALL English speaking countries today. About 90% of all native English speakers today are speaking a different language from their ancestors. This is a fact.
We haven't got round to the second language English speakers yet.
Originally posted by BanguIzai:
In Wales, only about 20% of the people can speak Welsh fluently now
People usually speak Wales English now, which is a variety of English
Ha ha exactly. More like only 10% of Welsh speak Welsh these days. Most only speak English.Yes you are right
I can even supply more examples from the following countries and expound on them if I have the time:
India
Turkey
Japan
and many others
I hope many of the posters here can have some time to read more linguistic journals
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Originally posted by BanguIzai:
Let's start from a clean sheet.
I.
He's saying Welsh immigrants originally spoke Welsh both at home (in Wales) and in the new land (in America)
Due to governmental policies, English became the dominant working language, thus Welsh immigrants descendants spoke English and not Welsh anymore
II.
If, Chinese immigrants originally spoke Chinese dialects at home (in China) and in the new land (in Singapore)
Due to governmental policies, English became the dominant working language, thus Chinese immigrants descendants may follow the Welsh pattern and speaks English and not Chinese dialects anymore
Let's see. If it's due to governmental policies, then in Singapore, we should continue to speak Mandarin. Mother tongue is still widely tested in Singapore; it's still used as entry criteria at PSLE into Sec Sch.
Let's include day to day activities as well. English may be the dominant working language, but being >70% Chinese population, Mandarin is the dominant heartland language, widely used in speech all over Singapore.
Finally, using the Welsh as an example isn't a reason on not speaking Mandarin at all. There are just too many differences in the comparison that has not been considered.
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Originally posted by Ranson:
English is the ancestral language of England alone. That means all other native English speakers today who are of non English ancestry are speaking a "foreign language" . In the United Kingdom, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall and Northern Ireland all have their own "ancestor languages" but now are almost all dead. They all speak English.
In fact, scotland, wales etc were all colonised by England many centuries ago as well, that is why they speak English today.
Lets look at America, an English speaking country. According to their govt census in 2000, only 8.7% have English ancestry. So basically over 90% of their country are non English and are speaking a "foreign language" that their ancestors did not speak.
Going by the "ancestor language" argument German Americans (15%) should speak German, Irish(10.8%) should speak Irish etc.
Have they all betrayed their roots then? This applies to ALL English speaking countries today. About 90% of all native English speakers today are speaking a different language from their ancestors. This is a fact.
We haven't got round to the second language English speakers yet.
Ha ha exactly. More like only 10% of Welsh speak Welsh these days. Most only speak English.Let me summarise.
Yes english is most frquently used, i must asslick english language in whatever toungue action i can get. Chinese and all languages suck. Boo Boo BOOO
QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ
QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ
QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ
QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ
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Originally posted by eagle:
Let's see. If it's due to governmental policies, then in Singapore, we should continue to speak Mandarin. Mother tongue is still widely tested in Singapore; it's still used as entry criteria at PSLE into Sec Sch.
Let's include day to day activities as well. English may be the dominant working language, but being >70% Chinese population, Mandarin is the dominant heartland language, widely used in speech all over Singapore.
Finally, using the Welsh as an example isn't a reason on not speaking Mandarin at all. There are just too many differences in the comparison that has not been considered.
Of course I fully understand from which direction both of you come from.
That's why there is no agreement.
TS is coming from a logical conclusion (I oppose your saying that it is logical fallacy)
while
You are coming from a conclusion based on observation more to policies delineated by the government and current situations
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Originally posted by eagle:
Let's see. If it's due to governmental policies, then in Singapore, we should continue to speak Mandarin. Mother tongue is still widely tested in Singapore; it's still used as entry criteria at PSLE into Sec Sch.
Let's include day to day activities as well. English may be the dominant working language, but being >70% Chinese population, Mandarin is the dominant heartland language, widely used in speech all over Singapore.
Finally, using the Welsh as an example isn't a reason on not speaking Mandarin at all. There are just too many differences in the comparison that has not been considered.
if we can pause for a while to think...
why in the first place our government chose Mandarin to be the connecting language among Chinese immigrants in Singapore?
that, in itself, doesn't need to be Mandarin right? that means, it is Mandarin, is not intrinsic by nature, but is motivated more by policies and government
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Originally posted by BanguIzai:
if we can pause for a while to think...
why in the first place our government chose Mandarin to be the connecting language among Chinese immigrants in Singapore?
that, in itself, doesn't need to be Mandarin right? that means, it is Mandarin, is not intrinsic by nature, but is motivated more by policies and government
Aiyo Bangulzai you think so much for wat
Be careful ah my flamethrower got no eyes hor
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Originally posted by BanguIzai:
Of course I fully understand from which direction both of you come from.
That's why there is no agreement.
TS is coming from a logical conclusion (I oppose your saying that it is logical fallacy)
while
You are coming from a conclusion based on observation more to policies delineated by the government and current situations
His is not a logical conclusion.
Just because someone or some other culture or race did it (supposing it is true), doesn't mean we should do it (refuse to speak Mandarin).
There's no logic whatsoever in his points, other than the fact that it is his choice to refuse.
Finally, I fail to see how his subtle conclusion that speaking Mandarin will lower his IQ is logical as well.
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I dont think you understand what the Ts is meaning. Short and simple he means english is more widely used, so i speak english and QQ chinese because i dont even know how to write and speak, i dont have the power to even learn 2 language.
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Originally posted by Ranson:
English is the ancestral language of England alone. That means all other native English speakers today who are of non English ancestry are speaking a "foreign language" . In the United Kingdom, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall and Northern Ireland all have their own "ancestor languages" but now are almost all dead. They all speak English.
In fact, scotland, wales etc were all colonised by England many centuries ago as well, that is why they speak English today.
Lets look at America, an English speaking country. According to their govt census in 2000, only 8.7% have English ancestry. So basically over 90% of their country are non English and are speaking a "foreign language" that their ancestors did not speak.
Going by the "ancestor language" argument German Americans (15%) should speak German, Irish(10.8%) should speak Irish etc.
Have they all betrayed their roots then? This applies to ALL English speaking countries today. About 90% of all native English speakers today are speaking a different language from their ancestors. This is a fact.
We haven't got round to the second language English speakers yet.
Ha ha exactly. More like only 10% of Welsh speak Welsh these days. Most only speak English.i didnt say they "betrayed their roots"?
and i suppose them dont go
dont speak <insert language here> leh, lowers my iq la.
if u realised
my problem with ur post is
it reeked of anglophilia
basically wad i understood from ur post is
oni english is da bomb,
the rest is BS!
cuz if they werent, sg will be using them in everything.
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Originally posted by BanguIzai:
if we can pause for a while to think...
why in the first place our government chose Mandarin to be the connecting language among Chinese immigrants in Singapore?
that, in itself, doesn't need to be Mandarin right? that means, it is Mandarin, is not intrinsic by nature, but is motivated more by policies and government
Err........
If you are talking about Chinese immigrants, how can Mandarin not be intrinsic then?
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Originally posted by eagle:
Err........
If you are talking about Chinese immigrants, how can Mandarin not be intrinsic then?
we ask ourselves, why Mandarin and not some other dialects?
Mandarin itself is considered a dialect like any other dialect by linguists
That's why I say, depends on where you stand and look at the issue
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Originally posted by BanguIzai:
if we can pause for a while to think...
why in the first place our government chose Mandarin to be the connecting language among Chinese immigrants in Singapore?
that, in itself, doesn't need to be Mandarin right? that means, it is Mandarin, is not intrinsic by nature, but is motivated more by policies and government
Why is mandrain connecting language among Chinese immigrants in Singapore ? Simply because speaking chinese is more confortable to them. I ofc try to speak japan to japanese. Same reason. And as for politics, if there is a debate on that. Yes it influences. But i see no reason saying it here, simply because Ts words are that simple.
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Originally posted by eagle:
Err........
If you are talking about Chinese immigrants, how can Mandarin not be intrinsic then?
Ethnic Classifications / Racial Classifications / Linguistic Classifications can be manipulated by policies and governments, thus are "error prone" / "can be manipulated"
one of my past post regarding objectivity to this issue:
http://sgforums.com/forums/8/topics/348263?page=2#post_8846699
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Originally posted by eagle:
His is not a logical conclusion.
Just because someone or some other culture or race did it (supposing it is true), doesn't mean we should do it (refuse to speak Mandarin).
There's no logic whatsoever in his points, other than the fact that it is his choice to refuse.
Finally, I fail to see how his subtle conclusion that speaking Mandarin will lower his IQ is logical as well.
well, from the link I dug up ..... perhaps for him, it's a case of cognitive deficiency, really ? ....
after all ... to quote from the link ...
"Mandarin is a notoriously difficult language to learn"
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Originally posted by TTFU:
Why is mandrain connecting language among Chinese immigrants in Singapore ? Simply because speaking chinese is more confortable to them. I ofc try to speak japan to japanese. Same reason. And as for politics, if there is a debate on that. Yes it influences. But i see no reason saying it here, simply because Ts words are that simple.
Speaking Mandarin is not comfortable to the 1st generation IMHO.
It is a language which is imposed on the Cantonese, Hokkien, Teochew, etc. native speakers for many reasons (economical, political)
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Originally posted by BanguIzai:
we ask ourselves, why Mandarin and not some other dialects?
Mandarin itself is considered a dialect like any other dialect by linguists
That's why I say, depends on where you stand and look at the issue
Well, Mandarin is the working language, or main language, in China since the era of Qin. It was the language used to unite China.
Of all dialects, that would be the best choice since Chinese immigrants can come from any part of China.
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Originally posted by BanguIzai:
Speaking Mandarin is not comfortable to the 1st generation IMHO.
It is a language which is imposed on the Cantonese, Hokkien, Teochew, etc. native speakers for many reasons (economical, political)
Yes, they wanted a common language, just like english is common to the US. But is there a need to go into all this ?
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Originally posted by TTFU:
Yes, they wanted a common language, just like english is common to the US. But is there a need to go into all this ?
Because when you look at all the discussions above, everyone interpreted the terms (Chinese, National Language, Dialects) hapzardly according each own's understanding
That's why debate is endless
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Originally posted by BanguIzai:
Ethnic Classifications / Racial Classifications / Linguistic Classifications can be manipulated by policies and governments, thus are "error prone" / "can be manipulated"
one of my past post regarding objectivity to this issue:
http://sgforums.com/forums/8/topics/348263?page=2#post_8846699
I understand your viewpoint, but it's not linked to why the refusal to speak Mandarin.
Using the same argument, speaking English is also "error prone" / "can be manipulated".
My main point is still against TS's subtle hint on Mandarin as a language of lower IQ, and that English is the way to go, if you realised.
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Originally posted by eagle:
Well, Mandarin is the working language, or main language, in China since the era of Qin. It was the language used to unite China.
Of all dialects, that would be the best choice since Chinese immigrants can come from any part of China.
In the era of Qin, there was more than one dialect in the area of Qin. Qin dynasty's reputation is only to unite the written characters.
No doubt there was standard language in China all along, but it was never standardized and it is never always the Northern Dialect
For your info, there was no Mandarin as Official Language in China only until Communist Era. Mandarin itself is based on the Beijing vernacular dialect which was only elevated to the status of National Language by the government.
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Originally posted by BanguIzai:
Because when you look at all the discussions above, everyone interpreted the terms (Chinese, National Language, Dialects) hapzardly according each own's understanding
That's why debate is endless
Utimately its just a language for communication. Reason for dialect cause its user lesser, or the government wanted to create a common language among us and the world therefore english (politics involved) . But beware Ts, the day when i dominate the world is the day i will make you speak TTFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU. That is the day when you start to QQ about english and start to asslick about TTFUUUUUUUUUUUUUU.
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Originally posted by eagle:
I understand your viewpoint, but it's not linked to why the refusal to speak Mandarin.
Using the same argument, speaking English is also "error prone" / "can be manipulated".
My main point is still against TS's subtle hint on Mandarin as a language of lower IQ, and that English is the way to go, if you realised.
I agree with TS is using objective data to justify his subjective interest, which is still acceptable.
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Originally posted by BanguIzai:
In the era of Qin, there was more than one dialect in the area of Qin. Qin dynasty's reputation is only to unite the written characters.
No doubt there was standard language in China all along, but it was never standardized and it is never always the Northern Dialect
For your info, there was no Mandarin as Official Language in China only until Communist Era. Mandarin itself is based on the Beijing vernacular dialect which was only elevated to the status of National Language by the government.
Thanks for the clarification.
That still mean it's still the national language, which would explain its choice as logical. It also explains the written characters learned here. As for the other dialects, there isn't any law barring others from speaking it too.
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Originally posted by TTFU:
Utimately its just a language for communication. Reason for dialect cause its user lesser, or the government wanted to create a common language among us and the world therefore english. But beware Ts, the day when i dominate the world is the day i will make you speak TTFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU. That is the day when you start to QQ about english and start to asslick about TTFUUUUUUUUUUUUUU.
Ya lar, so at the end, no right no wrong
But I will always say, doesn't necessary mean what government say, is right
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Originally posted by Straightstick:
don't be a banana okay? bleach yourself to complete the transformation =D
Ha ha you can call me whatever you want. I am no more "Banana" than President Obama (of African Kenyan ancestry), or the 90% of Americans with no English ancestry or the leaders of Singapore, many of whom cannot speak Mandarin well.I was educated in English and working in Singapore, I haven't written a word of Chinese for over a decade after leaving school. I speak with a Singaporean accent. In fact, I don't really enjoy Chinese culture much, which is why I tend to lean towards speaking English.
I pity those who lack self esteem and feel so insecure about using English that they find whatever means to justify their ignorance from deliberately speaking Singlish to muffling their voice etc despite them being educated in English.
You will be wiping my tables while I will be shaking my legs sitting in my chair. And you can bleach yourself since you like it so much ha ha, I am happy with who I am.
Originally posted by TTFU:Once again i will say, nobody gives a crap about what you speak. True america is leading. But that does not mean forever. I enjoy english as a language just as i enjoy speaking chinese, hokkien and planning to learn jap.
America is leading by a mile. Its economy is 15 trillion. China in number 2 is only 5 trillion I think.You throw in the economies of 55 English speaking countries, and of course Singapore, you will see the utility of English.
Plus all the EU countries and even ASEAN uses English.
Even in China, the Chinese are paying 20000 yuan just to take part time English courses from Singaporeans and British alike.
A perfect Beijing accented Chinese fresh grad in Shanghai makes 1500-2000 yuan.
A Singapore/British fresh grad who chooses to teach English in one of many English schools in Shanghai makes 7000-10000 yuan. In fact, they prefer you not to speak Mandarin at all so their students wont be tempted to use Mandarin with you.
Mandarin only spoken in 3 countries in the world - Singapore, Taiwan and China.
And as you can see, even in Taiwan and China, people who are fluent in English easily earn more, muc more.